Details


Author Topic: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge  (Read 8730 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline §upra

  • ░░2JZ-GTE░░
  • Global Moderator
  • Extreme Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7320
  • Gender: Male
  • TRD
    • View Profile
1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« on: June 25, 2007, 04:38:55 PM »
Now i was reading some of toyota's tech notes on both engines...

tell me what u think about the quote below;


It is very interesting to note the difference between the two engines.  The 1ZZFE and 2ZZGE are of the same displacement, but their bore and stroke are different.  The 1ZZFE “izzy” with the FE head is the quick response, high torque model- has a longer stroke ratio, to further improve the torque characteristic.  The 2ZZGE “duzzy” with the sports type GE head is the high RPM, higher HP unit- with a square bore / stroke ratio.  This allows it to rev and deliver power in the higher RPM range.

The driving characteristic of both engines are dramatically evident.  In the 2000 Celica, where both engines are offered- the GT with the 1ZZFE is easier and smoother to drive- more responsive.  The GTS with the 2ZZGE starts of lazier, and need lots of pedal- but ultimately more HP.  Which is a good contrast- drivers now know the trade-off between drivability and horsepower.  A lot of people who tested the cars opted for the more responsive GT model, although they were initially looking for power.   The power band characteristic of the two engines offer a good choice- chooses which is more important.


« Last Edit: June 25, 2007, 04:41:10 PM by $upra™ » TRD «® »

Offline 4E-FTE

  • Moderator
  • Extreme Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10342
  • Gender: Male
  • A look into your future
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2007, 04:45:27 PM »
True, you just figured this out.
Mixed in with the fun of driving it, is the embarrassment of owning and being seen in it - Jeremy Clarkson on the Mitsubishi Evolution.

Offline §upra

  • ░░2JZ-GTE░░
  • Global Moderator
  • Extreme Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7320
  • Gender: Male
  • TRD
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2007, 04:47:08 PM »
True, you just figured this out.

knew about the smoother and easier to drive part.... but more responsive  [ponder] [ponder] [ponder]


tryin to figure out why is this so if the 2zz is the 'sports' version


1zz  [winner]


Offline 4E-FTE

  • Moderator
  • Extreme Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10342
  • Gender: Male
  • A look into your future
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2007, 04:50:04 PM »
Its got a wider powerband, but ultimately less power.
Mixed in with the fun of driving it, is the embarrassment of owning and being seen in it - Jeremy Clarkson on the Mitsubishi Evolution.

Offline Nismo1

  • Extreme Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8132
  • Gender: Male
  • DEADLY combo...
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2007, 04:53:25 PM »
power and torque situated nearer to the red line

Offline §upra

  • ░░2JZ-GTE░░
  • Global Moderator
  • Extreme Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7320
  • Gender: Male
  • TRD
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2007, 04:54:13 PM »
Its got a wider powerband, but ultimately less power.

zeen  [ponder] [ponder]

my 1zz pulls like hell at mid-high rpm  [wave]

Offline 4E-FTE

  • Moderator
  • Extreme Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10342
  • Gender: Male
  • A look into your future
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2007, 06:04:22 PM »
Its got a wider powerband, but ultimately less power.

zeen  [ponder] [ponder]

my 1zz pulls like hell at mid-high rpm  [wave]
When you dyno I'll believe that. The 1ZZ is revving like mad because its struggling. The 2ZZ is revving like mad because the power is climbing.
Mixed in with the fun of driving it, is the embarrassment of owning and being seen in it - Jeremy Clarkson on the Mitsubishi Evolution.

Offline §upra

  • ░░2JZ-GTE░░
  • Global Moderator
  • Extreme Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7320
  • Gender: Male
  • TRD
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2007, 06:26:34 PM »
Its got a wider powerband, but ultimately less power.

zeen  [ponder] [ponder]

my 1zz pulls like hell at mid-high rpm  [wave]
When you dyno I'll believe that. The 1ZZ is revving like mad because its struggling. The 2ZZ is revving like mad because the power is climbing.

u always came across as a sensible person to me....  [ponder]  this is the most BS u have ever posted.

who said anything about "revving like mad"?  that statement make it sound like im sayin my car make up a bagga noise at high rpm and i belive that its making power. im not an idiot sir.


now, mid-high rpm as i have stated above was with respect to the 1zz-fe and not the 2zz-ge.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2007, 06:30:07 PM by $upra™ » TRD «® »

Offline 4E-FTE

  • Moderator
  • Extreme Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10342
  • Gender: Male
  • A look into your future
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2007, 06:33:05 PM »
You're free to interpret 'revving like mad' how you feel in relation to the 'pulling like hell'.

So what exactly is the mid-high rpm pull of the 1ZZ comparable to. Its like saying a diesel has mad low-end pull, in relation to what? I'm sure D15 owners swear their engines have 'mad pull' until they try a b18C or a B20.
Mixed in with the fun of driving it, is the embarrassment of owning and being seen in it - Jeremy Clarkson on the Mitsubishi Evolution.

Offline §upra

  • ░░2JZ-GTE░░
  • Global Moderator
  • Extreme Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7320
  • Gender: Male
  • TRD
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2007, 06:37:33 PM »
You're free to interpret 'revving like mad' how you feel in relation to the 'pulling like hell'.

So what exactly is the mid-high rpm pull of the 1ZZ comparable to. Its like saying a diesel has mad low-end pull, in relation to what? I'm sure D15 owners swear their engines have 'mad pull' until they try a b18C or a B20.

u still fail to see my point....

i was comparing the 1zz to anything. simply stating that the car pulls nicely at mid-high rpm (4000-5800) give or take.

Offline 4E-FTE

  • Moderator
  • Extreme Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10342
  • Gender: Male
  • A look into your future
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2007, 06:39:13 PM »
Define 'nice'...  Here's why? I've driven several 1ZZ-FEs and its kinda weedy to me. It has good response from low to mid, but runs out of breath out top.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2007, 06:41:33 PM by 4E-FTE »
Mixed in with the fun of driving it, is the embarrassment of owning and being seen in it - Jeremy Clarkson on the Mitsubishi Evolution.

Offline §upra

  • ░░2JZ-GTE░░
  • Global Moderator
  • Extreme Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7320
  • Gender: Male
  • TRD
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2007, 06:47:14 PM »
Define 'nice'...  Here's why? I've driven several 1ZZ-FEs and its kinda weedy to me. It has good response from low to mid, but runs out of breath out top.

the 1zz is no powerhouse... get that.... but with this said   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  i'll rest the argument.

if it did pull all the way through low-mid-high there would be no need for the 2zz would there?
« Last Edit: June 25, 2007, 07:08:14 PM by $upra™ » TRD «® »

Offline High Boost

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 190
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2007, 06:48:49 PM »
Define 'nice'...  Here's why? I've driven several 1ZZ-FEs and its kinda weedy to me. It has good response from low to mid, but runs out of breath out top
to make a statement like this, you must be comparing it to something, if even a previous model or a car you've driven...i'm sure a driver of a Lada or a Subaru Justy would have a decidedly different "opinion" than yourself [noclue] [noclue] [noclue] [noclue]
Drive to live, Live to drive!

Offline 4E-FTE

  • Moderator
  • Extreme Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10342
  • Gender: Male
  • A look into your future
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2007, 08:23:14 PM »
Which was kinda my point. The original statements by the 1ZZ owner were:

Quote
my 1zz pulls like hell at mid-high rpm
and then he 'tones' it down to
Quote
car pulls nicely at mid-high rpm

I would assume that his 'opinion' came from some sort of comparative situation, as did mine. He's saying he isn't comparing it to nothing but itself.
Mixed in with the fun of driving it, is the embarrassment of owning and being seen in it - Jeremy Clarkson on the Mitsubishi Evolution.

Offline §upra

  • ░░2JZ-GTE░░
  • Global Moderator
  • Extreme Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7320
  • Gender: Male
  • TRD
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2007, 08:24:11 PM »
Which was kinda my point. The original statements by the 1ZZ owner were:

Quote
my 1zz pulls like hell at mid-high rpm
and then he 'tones' it down to
Quote
car pulls nicely at mid-high rpm

I would assume that his 'opinion' came from some sort of comparative situation, as did mine.

no comparison.

and i changed the wording to prevent u from thinking i thought the 1zz was a all round powerhouse.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2007, 08:27:54 PM by $upra™ » TRD «® »

Offline 2RedDevils

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1153
  • Gender: Male
  • Total Road Domination
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2007, 06:47:07 AM »
Some of my research actually indicated that the 1ZZFE was created with the following goals in mind:
- compact engine design
- good fuel economy
- usable torque for the general (read between the lines: non-performance) market

The 1ZZ was created to be a ubiquitous economy engine that could fit in many corolla chassis variations, the celica and the MR-S.
In the case of the MR-S, goals 1 and 3 mentioned above were the reason that the engine was chosen as the powerplant.

Owning a modified 1ZZFE i can attest to its lack of power, however it does respond nicely to modification.
CAI + Headers+ 2.25 cat-back exhaust + Emanage netted me 142.2 hp to the wheels (dynoed in third gear).
I am hoping to install the MWR 2.0L bore kit (with the 11:1 option) this fall with a goal of closer to 160whp.

But heres what kicks you when you're down, even if you get I-H-E + Emanage + higher compression + increased bore and equal the horsepower of a stock 2ZZGE, you still have 2000rpm less powerband! In the end, you just have to accept that the 1ZZ is NOT a performance engine....but throw some money at it and its not half bad.
Red 1994 Toyota Hilux 2.8D <- Red Devil #1: Learn to maintain momentum; drive a Diesel!
Red 1991 Ford Sierra 2.0L <- Red Devil #2: Rest in Peace :-(
Red 2003 Toyota Matrix 1.8L <- Practicality FTMFW

Offline 2RedDevils

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1153
  • Gender: Male
  • Total Road Domination
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2007, 11:23:53 AM »
Define 'nice'...  Here's why? I've driven several 1ZZ-FEs and its kinda weedy to me. It has good response from low to mid, but runs out of breath out top.

the 1zz is no powerhouse... get that.... but with this said   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  i'll rest the argument.

if it did pull all the way through low-mid-high there would be no need for the 2zz would there?

I'm gonna jump in on the 1ZZFE VS 2ZZGE thing right here.
The 2 engines are designed in completely different manners, with different characteristics, as is evident in the incompatibility of most of their parts (no head swaps or anything).

$upra, your first post had the example of driver's impressions of the Celica GT VS GTS. As i said before the 1ZZFE was created for the commuter, who needs usable torque. In the city, its impractical to rev upwards of 6000rpm unless you are doing something illegal or trying to piss off anyone in earshot.

The 1ZZ redlines at around 6400rpm, peak torque comes at around 4500rpm. 
The 2ZZ redlines at around 8200rpm, but peak torque only comes in after Lift engagement at 6400rpm

In the larger picture, both are low on torque, there is no "high torque" ZZ engine. The 1ZZ, because it does not have a second cam to engage, has a smoother/more linear powerband that is more rewarding at civilized rpm levels. The 2ZZ is built for peak horsepower, like a bike engine (lets not forget it was co-designed by Yamaha) has a big cam that NEEDS high rpm to make power. And because performance drivers are in the minority, then the statement that "a lot of people" prefered the Celica GT, is based on the statistics that the larger segment of the market wants driveability rather than a race engine.

Your statement that "if the 1zz pulled strongly in the lo-mid&high range there would be no need for the 2ZZ" is still unfounded because ultimately it still wouldnt have the same horsepower potential as the 2ZZGE.
nuh true?
Red 1994 Toyota Hilux 2.8D <- Red Devil #1: Learn to maintain momentum; drive a Diesel!
Red 1991 Ford Sierra 2.0L <- Red Devil #2: Rest in Peace :-(
Red 2003 Toyota Matrix 1.8L <- Practicality FTMFW

Offline §upra

  • ░░2JZ-GTE░░
  • Global Moderator
  • Extreme Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7320
  • Gender: Male
  • TRD
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2007, 11:39:36 AM »
Define 'nice'...  Here's why? I've driven several 1ZZ-FEs and its kinda weedy to me. It has good response from low to mid, but runs out of breath out top.

the 1zz is no powerhouse... get that.... but with this said   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  i'll rest the argument.

if it did pull all the way through low-mid-high there would be no need for the 2zz would there?

I'm gonna jump in on the 1ZZFE VS 2ZZGE thing right here.
The 2 engines are designed in completely different manners, with different characteristics, as is evident in the incompatibility of most of their parts (no head swaps or anything).

$upra, your first post had the example of driver's impressions of the Celica GT VS GTS. As i said before the 1ZZFE was created for the commuter, who needs usable torque. In the city, its impractical to rev upwards of 6000rpm unless you are doing something illegal or trying to piss off anyone in earshot.

The 1ZZ redlines at around 6400rpm, peak torque comes at around 4500rpm. 
The 2ZZ redlines at around 8200rpm, but peak torque only comes in after Lift engagement at 6400rpm

In the larger picture, both are low on torque, there is no "high torque" ZZ engine. The 1ZZ, because it does not have a second cam to engage, has a smoother/more linear powerband that is more rewarding at civilized rpm levels. The 2ZZ is built for peak horsepower, like a bike engine (lets not forget it was co-designed by Yamaha) has a big cam that NEEDS high rpm to make power. And because performance drivers are in the minority, then the statement that "a lot of people" prefered the Celica GT, is based on the statistics that the larger segment of the market wants driveability rather than a race engine.

Your statement that "if the 1zz pulled strongly in the lo-mid&high range there would be no need for the 2ZZ" is still unfounded because ultimately it still wouldnt have the same horsepower potential as the 2ZZGE.nuh true?

i said that statment being the power they make was put aside.

Offline 2RedDevils

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1153
  • Gender: Male
  • Total Road Domination
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2007, 11:40:52 AM »
zeen sorry for the misinterpretation man :-[
Red 1994 Toyota Hilux 2.8D <- Red Devil #1: Learn to maintain momentum; drive a Diesel!
Red 1991 Ford Sierra 2.0L <- Red Devil #2: Rest in Peace :-(
Red 2003 Toyota Matrix 1.8L <- Practicality FTMFW

Offline §upra

  • ░░2JZ-GTE░░
  • Global Moderator
  • Extreme Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7320
  • Gender: Male
  • TRD
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2007, 11:44:42 AM »
zeen sorry for the misinterpretation man :-[

stfu  [chairbang]  [rofl] [dwl] [rofl]  thanks for the contribution meng  [thumbsup] [thumbsup]

Offline pennygti

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2553
  • Gender: Male
  • Things done change
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2007, 12:04:51 PM »
is these such an engine 1zz-ge?
google says there is but i dont see it on toyota's engine list  [ponder]
if it is an actuall engine, then wouldnt it be a better platform then the 1zz-fe since with toyota the fe's are usually economic based and ge sport?  :P
The more time we spend bettering ourselves, is the less time we spend criticizing others

Offline 2RedDevils

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1153
  • Gender: Male
  • Total Road Domination
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2007, 12:34:30 PM »
its a typo. there is no such thing as a 1ZZ-GE [refuse]
google is a search engine, not a book of facts. ie: If one ignorant ra$$ says he has a 1zzge in his ride on some forum, google will find that page and point you to it. wikipedia ftw [nod]
Red 1994 Toyota Hilux 2.8D <- Red Devil #1: Learn to maintain momentum; drive a Diesel!
Red 1991 Ford Sierra 2.0L <- Red Devil #2: Rest in Peace :-(
Red 2003 Toyota Matrix 1.8L <- Practicality FTMFW

Offline pennygti

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2553
  • Gender: Male
  • Things done change
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2007, 12:51:14 AM »
now that being said, couldn't an 1zz-ge be built using the 2zz crankshaft (bore out the engine to seat the crank properly) ? and would be a more boost friendly engine?
The more time we spend bettering ourselves, is the less time we spend criticizing others

Offline 4E-FTE

  • Moderator
  • Extreme Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10342
  • Gender: Male
  • A look into your future
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2007, 01:38:35 AM »
The 1ZZ and 2ZZ have different stroke. Adding the 1ZZ to the 2ZZ creates a 2litre engine called the 3ZZ-GE. You cannot create a 1ZZ-GE because the VVTL-i system on the GE head works only with the GE block.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2007, 01:40:26 AM by 4E-FTE »
Mixed in with the fun of driving it, is the embarrassment of owning and being seen in it - Jeremy Clarkson on the Mitsubishi Evolution.

Offline §upra

  • ░░2JZ-GTE░░
  • Global Moderator
  • Extreme Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7320
  • Gender: Male
  • TRD
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2007, 08:42:52 AM »
The 1ZZ and 2ZZ have different stroke. Adding the 1ZZ to the 2ZZ creates a 2litre engine called the 3ZZ-GE. You cannot create a 1ZZ-GE because the VVTL-i system on the GE head works only with the GE block.

so in essence u coulde have a 1zz-ge..... just without lift?

Offline 2RedDevils

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1153
  • Gender: Male
  • Total Road Domination
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2007, 09:20:23 AM »
no, the GE heads are completely incompatible with the FE block and vice versa.
Red 1994 Toyota Hilux 2.8D <- Red Devil #1: Learn to maintain momentum; drive a Diesel!
Red 1991 Ford Sierra 2.0L <- Red Devil #2: Rest in Peace :-(
Red 2003 Toyota Matrix 1.8L <- Practicality FTMFW

Offline §upra

  • ░░2JZ-GTE░░
  • Global Moderator
  • Extreme Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7320
  • Gender: Male
  • TRD
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2007, 09:25:32 AM »
no, the GE heads are completely incompatible with the FE block and vice versa.

thought so  [thumbsup]

Offline 2RedDevils

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1153
  • Gender: Male
  • Total Road Domination
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2007, 09:27:59 AM »
The 1ZZ and 2ZZ have different stroke. Adding the 1ZZ crank to the 2ZZ creates a 2litre engine called the 3ZZ-GE. You cannot create a 1ZZ-GE because the VVTL-i system on the GE head works only with the GE block.

Re. bold text: 4E-FTE, so as to not confuse the ZZ-noob, i am gonna slightly correct you by saying that technically, there is no 3ZZ-GE; meaning that Toyota never produced an engine with this designation. Any google search on that will return either the 2ZZ stroker kit which is popularly called the "3ZZ"; or it will return info on the 3ZZ-FE which is a 1.6L economy engine [sick]

Sorry if it seemed unnecessary but i just thought to clear the air for those who don't know [thumbsup]
Red 1994 Toyota Hilux 2.8D <- Red Devil #1: Learn to maintain momentum; drive a Diesel!
Red 1991 Ford Sierra 2.0L <- Red Devil #2: Rest in Peace :-(
Red 2003 Toyota Matrix 1.8L <- Practicality FTMFW

Offline pennygti

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2553
  • Gender: Male
  • Things done change
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2007, 08:15:39 PM »
ok one-more-gain

1zz-fe block + 2zz-ge crank =  [noclue]

if the 3zz-ge is 2liter boost friendly engine then isnt that a mod to look into, but then again how many 2zz-ge lower half yu have laying around  ::)
The more time we spend bettering ourselves, is the less time we spend criticizing others

Offline toyracer

  • Moderator
  • Extreme Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12142
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2007, 10:29:52 AM »
ok one-more-gain

1zz-fe block + 2zz-ge crank =  [noclue]

That would be a 1,666cc "4ZZ-FE". With the 1ZZ bore and 2ZZ stroke you would have the smallest possible combination.

The key combination is the 2ZZ-GE block with the 1ZZ-FE crank. That makes 1933cc, the "3ZZ-GE".





LCA

  • Guest
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2007, 10:37:12 AM »
ok one-more-gain

1zz-fe block + 2zz-ge crank =  [noclue]

That would be a 1,666cc "4ZZ-FE". With the 1ZZ bore and 2ZZ stroke you would have the smallest possible combination.

The key combination is the 2ZZ-GE block with the 1ZZ-FE crank. That makes 1933cc, the "3ZZ-GE".






how od you measure CC if you dont know whats in the engine?

Offline Van Diesel

  • WJ Moderator
  • Extreme Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14589
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2007, 11:02:02 AM »
the block gives the bore and the crank may give the stroke?

LCA

  • Guest
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2007, 11:10:04 AM »
the block gives the bore and the crank may give the stroke?

how do you measure CC WITH OUT KNOWN WHATS IN THE ENGINE
i kno F1 anome other series uses the water test or iave seen it done if its not a a regular thing but
if i broought yuou an engine and said whats the CC on it with out pulling it down how you do tell what doyou do
« Last Edit: July 14, 2007, 11:13:04 AM by SS Works »

Offline Van Diesel

  • WJ Moderator
  • Extreme Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14589
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2007, 11:15:02 AM »
volume ... you have 4 cylinders ... the bore .. (the diameter) and the stroke (the height) ....

Offline Van Diesel

  • WJ Moderator
  • Extreme Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14589
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #34 on: July 14, 2007, 11:17:25 AM »
Formulas for displacement, bore and stroke

pi/4 = 0.7853982

cylinder volume = pi/4 x bore^2 x stroke

stroke = displacement / (pi/4 x bore^2 x number of cylinders)

Offline Van Diesel

  • WJ Moderator
  • Extreme Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14589
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #35 on: July 14, 2007, 11:17:56 AM »
displacement = B(bore/2)^2*stroke*number of cylinders .. dunno if this right .. doesnt look so ..

Offline pennygti

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2553
  • Gender: Male
  • Things done change
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #36 on: July 14, 2007, 12:22:32 PM »
ok one-more-gain

1zz-fe block + 2zz-ge crank =  [noclue]

That would be a 1,666cc "4ZZ-FE". With the 1ZZ bore and 2ZZ stroke you would have the smallest possible combination.

The key combination is the 2ZZ-GE block with the 1ZZ-FE crank. That makes 1933cc, the "3ZZ-GE".






2zz-ge block + 1zz-fe crank = weak "2 litre" the fe crank is not desired isnt it the ge crank we aiming to use?   
and how could 2 1800's produce a 1600 ?  ???   
The more time we spend bettering ourselves, is the less time we spend criticizing others

Offline 4E-FTE

  • Moderator
  • Extreme Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10342
  • Gender: Male
  • A look into your future
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #37 on: July 14, 2007, 01:16:03 PM »
ok one-more-gain

1zz-fe block + 2zz-ge crank =  [noclue]

That would be a 1,666cc "4ZZ-FE". With the 1ZZ bore and 2ZZ stroke you would have the smallest possible combination.

The key combination is the 2ZZ-GE block with the 1ZZ-FE crank. That makes 1933cc, the "3ZZ-GE".






2zz-ge block + 1zz-fe crank = weak "2 litre" the fe crank is not desired isnt it the ge crank we aiming to use?   
and how could 2 1800's produce a 1600 ?  ???   


1ZZ = 1794cc = bore: 79.0 x stroke: 91.5
2ZZ = 1795cc = bore: 82    x stoke: 85

Because the 1ZZ has a longer stroke its crank increases the displacement of the 2ZZ. Piston is lower in block. The 2ZZ has a shorter throw thus is the piston is higher in the block doing the opposite.
Mixed in with the fun of driving it, is the embarrassment of owning and being seen in it - Jeremy Clarkson on the Mitsubishi Evolution.

Offline 2RedDevils

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1153
  • Gender: Male
  • Total Road Domination
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #38 on: July 14, 2007, 04:02:08 PM »
i just dunno what this dude is after [noclue]
Pennygti, is what, you looking junkyard tactics to spice up a 1ZZ or what? Or are you just going round and round in circles for no reason?
Red 1994 Toyota Hilux 2.8D <- Red Devil #1: Learn to maintain momentum; drive a Diesel!
Red 1991 Ford Sierra 2.0L <- Red Devil #2: Rest in Peace :-(
Red 2003 Toyota Matrix 1.8L <- Practicality FTMFW

Offline pennygti

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2553
  • Gender: Male
  • Things done change
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #39 on: July 14, 2007, 06:04:26 PM »
no just thrashing out a topic dude............the more stupid questions you ask the more you learn
The more time we spend bettering ourselves, is the less time we spend criticizing others

Offline pennygti

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2553
  • Gender: Male
  • Things done change
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #40 on: July 14, 2007, 06:08:30 PM »
ok one-more-gain

1zz-fe block + 2zz-ge crank =  [noclue]

That would be a 1,666cc "4ZZ-FE". With the 1ZZ bore and 2ZZ stroke you would have the smallest possible combination.

The key combination is the 2ZZ-GE block with the 1ZZ-FE crank. That makes 1933cc, the "3ZZ-GE".






2zz-ge block + 1zz-fe crank = weak "2 litre" the fe crank is not desired isnt it the ge crank we aiming to use?   
and how could 2 1800's produce a 1600 ?  ???   


1ZZ = 1794cc = bore: 79.0 x stroke: 91.5
2ZZ = 1795cc = bore: 82    x stoke: 85

Because the 1ZZ has a longer stroke its crank increases the displacement of the 2ZZ. Piston is lower in block. The 2ZZ has a shorter throw thus is the piston is higher in the block doing the opposite.

that being said what causes the 1666 ? not too sure bout that part  [ponder]
The more time we spend bettering ourselves, is the less time we spend criticizing others

Offline 4E-FTE

  • Moderator
  • Extreme Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10342
  • Gender: Male
  • A look into your future
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #41 on: July 14, 2007, 06:28:44 PM »
I give up!  [wallbash]

If you put the 2ZZ crank in the 1ZZ engine you would get an engine with a 79mm bore and a 85mm stroke.

http://www.web-cars.com/math/displacement.html Here. Geez! Make sure you put the cylinders to 4 and choose Metric.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2007, 06:40:59 PM by 4E-FTE »
Mixed in with the fun of driving it, is the embarrassment of owning and being seen in it - Jeremy Clarkson on the Mitsubishi Evolution.

Offline pennygti

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2553
  • Gender: Male
  • Things done change
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #42 on: July 14, 2007, 10:29:35 PM »
dont wigg out i got no more quest/comm on the subject
« Last Edit: July 14, 2007, 10:32:11 PM by pennygti »
The more time we spend bettering ourselves, is the less time we spend criticizing others

Offline toyracer

  • Moderator
  • Extreme Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12142
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #43 on: July 16, 2007, 10:21:45 AM »
2zz-ge block + 1zz-fe crank = weak "2 litre" the fe crank is not desired isnt it the ge crank we aiming to use?   

Why do you think that the 1ZZ crankshaft is weak??


Offline Van Diesel

  • WJ Moderator
  • Extreme Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14589
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #44 on: July 16, 2007, 06:20:57 PM »
what rpms would this hybrid zz top out at?

Offline pennygti

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2553
  • Gender: Male
  • Things done change
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #45 on: July 16, 2007, 07:58:25 PM »
2zz-ge block + 1zz-fe crank = weak "2 litre" the fe crank is not desired isnt it the ge crank we aiming to use?   

Why do you think that the 1ZZ crankshaft is weak??



A Naturally aspirated toyota engine rule of thumb..................only boosted from factory fe's have strong cranks and bearing
i know the difference in crank size is not much but I'm almost sure it matteres
i making my comments based off the factory 7afe, 5efe, 3sfe.........none of these engines are recommended for boosting or even nos-ing cause of inferior crank shaft and bearings     
The more time we spend bettering ourselves, is the less time we spend criticizing others

Offline Van Diesel

  • WJ Moderator
  • Extreme Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14589
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #46 on: July 17, 2007, 12:19:09 AM »
so how them use the 5sfe crank to make the 5sgte?

Offline toyracer

  • Moderator
  • Extreme Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12142
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #47 on: July 17, 2007, 09:14:31 AM »
2zz-ge block + 1zz-fe crank = weak "2 litre" the fe crank is not desired isnt it the ge crank we aiming to use?   

Why do you think that the 1ZZ crankshaft is weak??


i making my comments based off the factory 7afe, 5efe, 3sfe.........none of these engines are recommended for boosting or even nos-ing cause of inferior crank shaft and bearings     

You're basing your assessment of the 1ZZ crankshaft off the crankshaft from other engines... in all seriousness, that is a mistake.

Quote
only boosted from factory fe's have strong cranks and bearing

And that is definitely not correct. I can think of a few "FE's" that have very strong crankshafts, and the 1ZZ is one of them.

Offline Van Diesel

  • WJ Moderator
  • Extreme Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14589
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #48 on: July 17, 2007, 10:27:05 AM »
what rpms would this hybrid zz top out at?

?

Offline pennygti

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2553
  • Gender: Male
  • Things done change
    • View Profile
Re: 1zz-fe vs. 2zz-ge
« Reply #49 on: July 17, 2007, 09:57:21 PM »
2zz-ge block + 1zz-fe crank = weak "2 litre" the fe crank is not desired isnt it the ge crank we aiming to use?   

Why do you think that the 1ZZ crankshaft is weak??


i making my comments based off the factory 7afe, 5efe, 3sfe.........none of these engines are recommended for boosting or even nos-ing cause of inferior crank shaft and bearings     

You're basing your assessment of the 1ZZ crankshaft off the crankshaft from other engines... in all seriousness, that is a mistake.

Quote
only boosted from factory fe's have strong cranks and bearing

And that is definitely not correct. I can think of a few "FE's" that have very strong crankshafts, and the 1ZZ is one of them.

Ive only found some info on the 1zz-fe crank specs so i'm not able to compair it to the 2zz-ge? you're prolly right bout the crank cause if it was weak they wouldn't have built the engine to run on 10:1 compression however i dont think its as strong as the the 2zz (i know the 2zz is built with lighter matterial) but is (the 1zz engine's internal weight) the only reason why the manufacture chose to run a lower compression on it?   
The more time we spend bettering ourselves, is the less time we spend criticizing others